Tithing

My wife and I are in a bit of a struggle in that we believe that God has called us to be generous people, but we don't necessarily believe that this means giving a tithe to a church. We do purpose to give away at least 10% of our income, we just would rather support missionaries or give to our neighbors who needed help with their rent.

i guess the real issue is that we don't agree with the way a lot of the money is spent at our church. At some level I believe that being a steward of my money means looking at where it's going.

It's similar to buying a hobo food instead of just giving him money (yes, I did just compare the church to a hobo, sorry). I could give him money and say it's not my responsibility what he does with it because I was obedient to bless him. Well, maybe it takes a little more work on my part to go buy him some food or invite him inside with me (a lot of them really stink by the way) but that is the more right thing to do.

I somehow believe that it is my responsibility to see that the money I give goes to a cause that I deem good.

It's not that I don't think that people should be paid good salaries, I think I'd be happier if that's where it went. I get a little agitated when I see multiple flat-screen tv's and numerous color-changing background lights. Do you know how much those things cost? Do you know how many single-mothers struggle with paying their light bills?

Malachi 3 talks about bringing the tithe into the storehouse, but if we're going to follow the law, let's follow all of it.

Anyway, have any of you had similar struggles with this issue?

The church is the church only when it exists for others - Bonhoeffer

The Bible, I would say, has much more to say about tithing than what you will typically see on Sunday morning television. Consider the following passage:

"You shall surely tithe all the produce from what you sow, which comes out of the field every year. You shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God, (B)at the place where He chooses to establish His name, the tithe of your grain, your new wine, your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and your flock, so that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always. If the distance is so great for you that you are not able to bring the tithe, since the place where the LORD your God chooses (D)to set His name is too far away from you when the LORD your God blesses you, then you shall exchange it for money, and bind the money in your hand and go to the place which the LORD your God chooses. You may spend the money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household. Also you shall not neglect the Levite who is in your town, for he has no portion or inheritance among you." (Deuteronomy 14:22-27)

Unless I read this passage incorrectly, the tithe, as it is specified here, refers to crops and cattle, and is to be used in celebration and to "learn to fear the Lord your God always." The passage says don't forget the Levites (the preachers of the day), but it seems that they're just included in the festivities. Fast-forward to today, and my wife and I don't consider money we spend on food and alcohol part of our tithe (even if it's for a church potluck). Interesting how traditions change over time.


In response to my brother's question, Leah and I do contribute regularly to ministries that we believe in, even if it means that 10% of our income doesn't go to the church. During the 6 months or so that we didn't have a local church, our entire tithe went to ministries we support.

Ideally, you should be able to have confidence that your church is doing worthwhile ministry (and reducing its overhead as much as possible). I would like to believe that most of the money that I contribute to our local church goes straight to the work of the ministry. I know salaries are often a necessary part of that, but one thing that I like about the church we attend in Seattle is that the staff members (some of them have jobs as well) have been supported as missionaries from their home church in TX since they were sent out to plant our church a couple of years ago. It's a good thing because with mostly college students, they'd probably starve in the summer otherwise.

There are a lot of books and websites out there that say tithing is an outdated practice that is only kept around because pastors want to drive nice cars, but I fear that people who think that way have really missed the point of giving at all. Generosity is the goal here, and tithing to the church is a good place to start. It probably depends on your church, but if your neighbor is going to get evicted, and your money is going to build Jan Crouch's hairdo, then you might want to take a second look at where your money's going. I do believe we have a responsibility to be good stewards with what God has given us.

I know the message isn't the Bible, but I like its wording here:
"Real religion, the kind that passes muster before God the Father, is this: Reach out to the homeless and loveless in their plight, and guard against corruption from the godless world." (James 1:27)

I'm interested to get more input from the rest of you guys.

Alright,
I don't know where to start. Well I'll start with this. Will, Trey , Andy , Bob and Adam(I just called my dad Bob) SPEAK UP! Josh and Matt are two of coolest people in the world to talk to as you can probably tell but your input would be lovely.
Tithing/Giving to the church . . . ?
This is what I believe , and I will leave it up to you noble readers to prove it.
I believe that the 10% known as tithe is Old Testament and not a principle , tradition or practice taught by Jesus.
Jesus said ' sell it all , give it to the poor ' . The church has made it too easy and too little. We feel justified giving our 10% to the church and depending on them to distribute it to the poor . We leave ourselves out of the dirty part ( you're right Josh , some of them do stink and it takes a lot more work ) . I think Jesus upped the ante when he came. He wants all of me and everything I've got ! As my dad says , "10% is a good start". And while we're at it , What about my time ? Time is a prescious commodity these days , it reminds me of a lyric a friend wrote, " silver and gold have I some, but is that enough to buy a single soul ?" . I say No! My time and my talents are gifts of equal value. Having said that, I do believe that the church is the Bride of Christ and that I am a part of it. I think one should be led by the Holy Spirit when contemplating what and how much to give to the church.
If I sound like I have ought against the church , I do. And as I put it's splinter under the microscope , the beam in my own eye keeps getting in the way. I thank GOD that He is Gracious and that I am not He .
I have a bit more to say on the subject but will quiet down for now.

PS Josh, do you know others that feel the same as you and your wife or is yours a singular case?

Okay, Zach, before you yell at me again for not posting, I just wrote the best, most all-encompassing post on tithing that would have forever settled the question in everyone's mind...

...only to hit "preview" and have this lovely forum site tell me I wasn't logged in. The post was lost, and at this moment I don't have the heart to recompose it. javascript:emoticonp('')
Sad

Maybe we'll give it another shot later...

I'm waiting to be enlightened

I can only hope this response is as clever and life-changing as the one I lost last week.

A couple of years back, a friend of mine (the sort who often comes with questions like this) asked me about tithing. At the time, I was convinced it was, indeed, a command. Give your 10% or else. (I'm not sure what the “or else” would be, but it certainly couldn't be pretty. Something like losing your hair or growing warts on your face, I'm sure.) But after doing a little research to answer my friend, the main idea I cam away with was this: Tithing is not a New Testament principle, but if you're concerned about giving a mere 10%, you're grossly undershooting the mark.

I've been reading Leviticus. Don't ask why. Do you know how complicated and messy (literally) most of the sacrifices were? Aren't you glad you don't have to kill your goat by slitting its throat, sprinkle its blood on the altar, watch the priest wave its innards about in the air (as a wave offering to the Lord), and only then are you “clean”? And not only once! Over and over and over and over.... Instead, thank God, we have a perfect Sacrifice. Comparing the death of Christ to the Old Testament sacrifices is like comparing the amount of water in your toilet bowl to the Pacific Ocean. (Bet you've never heard that one before. Hopefully, you never will again.)

The New Covenant we find ourselves under is infinitely superior and inscrutably beyond the Old Covenant. So should our view on giving be under that New Covenant. It's not just my 10% that belongs to God. Everything I have, every cent I earn, it's His.

I am still a strong believer in the local church, and not only because I work for one. (Thanks for the merciful words okaying salaries, guys.) Maybe that's because I'm part of a church that really does make its mission “changing seekers in to spiritually empowered servants of Christ.” I think it's important to support your local church, even if it isn't with your whole tithe. (I also believe if you don't trust your church's leaders with your money, it's going to be difficult to trust them with much else, so you may want to move on to a place you feel safe supporting. Also, if you're being “fed” by a church's ministry, then I think it is only honorable to help support it!) I know that at my church, great pains are taken to assure that money is not spent wildly and irresponsibly. But I'm sure any fisherman will tell you, nets and bait aren't free, and it's important to have the right bait for the type of fish you're going after.

Like a lot of our New Covenant, it no longer comes down to a legalistic system. It used to be so simple: don't smoke, don't drink, don't dance, don't swear, don't play cards, don't watch the Simpsons. But now, we have to rely on our hearts for so much. We have to rely on what God is telling us, personally. So it's no longer as simple as giving your ten percent (off the gross, of course) and you're covered. What is God telling you to give? Who is He telling you to give to? I'm not so sure it really is my responsibility to make sure the money is going to what I consider the right place. That would make it MY money. (Don't think I'm advocating being stupid. For instance, I wouldn't send my money to Robert Tilton aka the Farting Preacher.) It's not my money. It's God's. As long as I see myself as giving it to HIM, then it's His responsibility to make sure it is used for the best possible purpose. But I do have to give, and ten percent should only be the starting point.

Hey men! That's some good thought on tithing. The consensus seems to be that our Lord wants a lot more than that from us, and of course he does. My title refers to that oft used tithing text , Malachi 3:8-12. He was speaking to Israel but if he was speaking to the church today it might sound something like this...." Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed me But you say, wherein have we robbed you? By preaching tithes and offerings." The body of Christ has been stunted by it, but not as much by the minimal giving it produces as the righteousness by works it presents. I encourage you guys to study Galations on that point. Faith vs works of the law is Paul's chief concern there and it speaks to other problems we face in church these days. Sorry--got to run. Love God with all that you are--lift up the name of Jesus--love the church!

Thanks, Mr. Wilson, for your enlightening comments. My wife and I discussed your "grace vs. works" and that really brought some things to light for us.

By the way, Will, great post on tithing as well. I'm going to tell Bobby he needs to give you a raise. heh heh.

Well said Will. So the question is ... What will your message be when Pastor Bobby ask you to take up the offering? Which brings me back to my first post ( the inquisitive mind ) When does your consience, your beliefs, your principles require you to speak of them ?